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Main - General MFN Discussion

Re: IMPORTANT: Play Removal Notice

By Legendruthless
10/17/2022 2:59 pm
I also don't think we have the data on other defensive plays yet. Because the flat zone was one of the best plays to stop the Hitch in 4.5, so many teams had strong familiarity with it and that is what caused the wave of teams to use it.

Once we start using other plays, whichever one comes out as the best people will spam and we will be back in the same situation.

Re: IMPORTANT: Play Removal Notice

By Blondie1977
10/17/2022 3:07 pm
Legendruthless wrote:
setherick wrote:
Legendruthless wrote:
CrazySexyBeast wrote:
lots of "I've been abusing the **** out of both these plays blah blah dont do or delay or i'll lose!"
HAHAHAHAHAHA!
That's what you get for abusing the plays, yo.

Just rip the **** bandaid off and stop the bug.

Thx JDB, appreciate the action taken :)
Gonna go toss in some random plays to fill my d/o playbooks and then remove them post patch.
Super simple and less than 5 minutes of my time.
Easy fix to a nasty bug.
CSB


It still won't solve the underlying problem. All everyone is going to do is change flat zone for another zone play. Sure you'll be more successful for maybe a season. But back to where we were.

I am ok with removing FZ for now as most teams have built up the familiarity to dominate, this will sort of be a reset for a season until other plays are spammed.


This isn't true. Statistically the other zone plays are ineffective against most runs or passes. The FZ was effective because it put multiple players in the passing lanes of the passing plays that work. Most passing plays don't work against any man defense.

The biggest problem with the testing of the game engine is that it uses zone and man equally. So the automated test suite shows the passing game as balanced and realistic when really no one runs zone in competitive leagues.


It is true to an extent. While the FZ may be the best of them I have seen others work just as well. I mentioned 3-4 Normal Man Cover 1. I have played against this play and my running game was stuffed. The person was pass keying as well. -2 yards often against a play that should have been successful against it. But the offensive play familiarity was negative.

I don't think people are going to get what they want out of this. Maybe at first. To truly resolve this we need overuse on all plays.


I've been saying this for months now. Is it really that hard to change the code to slap overuse on all plays?

Re: IMPORTANT: Play Removal Notice

By jdavidbakr - Site Admin
10/17/2022 3:18 pm
It's easy to put overuse on all plays, however back when overuse was being beta tested we found that this caused offenses to become too strong near the end of games because in order to have enough balance in the playbook for various situations (short yardage or long yardage situations, for example) the bread and butter plays that should not need penalizing would break down.

Re: IMPORTANT: Play Removal Notice

By setherick - League Admin
10/17/2022 3:20 pm
Bruno77 wrote:
setherick wrote:
Legendruthless wrote:
CrazySexyBeast wrote:
lots of "I've been abusing the **** out of both these plays blah blah dont do or delay or i'll lose!"
HAHAHAHAHAHA!
That's what you get for abusing the plays, yo.

Just rip the **** bandaid off and stop the bug.

Thx JDB, appreciate the action taken :)
Gonna go toss in some random plays to fill my d/o playbooks and then remove them post patch.
Super simple and less than 5 minutes of my time.
Easy fix to a nasty bug.
CSB


It still won't solve the underlying problem. All everyone is going to do is change flat zone for another zone play. Sure you'll be more successful for maybe a season. But back to where we were.

I am ok with removing FZ for now as most teams have built up the familiarity to dominate, this will sort of be a reset for a season until other plays are spammed.


This isn't true. Statistically the other zone plays are ineffective against most runs or passes. The FZ was effective because it put multiple players in the passing lanes of the passing plays that work. Most passing plays don't work against any man defense.

The biggest problem with the testing of the game engine is that it uses zone and man equally. So the automated test suite shows the passing game as balanced and realistic when really no one runs zone in competitive leagues.


Replace the word zone with just non-blitzing plays (so I am thinking for example of 3-4 Man Cover 1, 4-3 Man Under 1, 46 Heavy 2 Deep Man Under). Is this still the case?


Yes and no. These are vulnerable to certain passing plays.

The bigger overall issue comes with overuse penalties. These defensive calls don't get overuse. Offensive plays do.

So effective offensive plays become less effective over the course of the game. But man defenses that do not blitz don't. So I can stream the 3-4 Cover 1 against the 113, 203, and 212 and shut down the run and not risk getting burned often by the hitch. This is more true in 4.6 where the WR1 is the #1 target on the hitch so my opponent is going to have to run it a lot to hit the home run on the backside. And start getting hit with overuse penalties before that hits.
Last edited at 10/17/2022 3:20 pm

Re: IMPORTANT: Play Removal Notice

By Legendruthless
10/17/2022 3:20 pm
jdavidbakr wrote:
It's easy to put overuse on all plays, however back when overuse was being beta tested we found that this caused offenses to become too strong near the end of games because in order to have enough balance in the playbook for various situations (short yardage or long yardage situations, for example) the bread and butter plays that should not need penalizing would break down.


Could you at least put some sort of a cap on non-blitzing plays? Something like 15-20? Should help resolve that issue no? I mean I think I speak for most when we would like to see most of the league throwing for 4000 yards. As close to the real NFL as possible.

I am all for any ideas anyone has.

Re: IMPORTANT: Play Removal Notice

By setherick - League Admin
10/17/2022 3:22 pm
Legendruthless wrote:
I also don't think we have the data on other defensive plays yet. Because the flat zone was one of the best plays to stop the Hitch in 4.5, so many teams had strong familiarity with it and that is what caused the wave of teams to use it.

Once we start using other plays, whichever one comes out as the best people will spam and we will be back in the same situation.


I have a lot of defensive data that backs up what I'm saying. I'll post a summary later.

Re: IMPORTANT: Play Removal Notice

By Legendruthless
10/17/2022 3:26 pm
setherick wrote:
Legendruthless wrote:
I also don't think we have the data on other defensive plays yet. Because the flat zone was one of the best plays to stop the Hitch in 4.5, so many teams had strong familiarity with it and that is what caused the wave of teams to use it.

Once we start using other plays, whichever one comes out as the best people will spam and we will be back in the same situation.


I have a lot of defensive data that backs up what I'm saying. I'll post a summary later.


I get what the data will say. How many people have called a different play other than flat zone that much? My point is, if everyone spammed a different play as much, how effective will it be compared to flat zone? My limited personal experience has shown its similar.

But I don't know if there is enough data out there to prove it.

Re: IMPORTANT: Play Removal Notice

By setherick - League Admin
10/17/2022 3:28 pm
Legendruthless wrote:
setherick wrote:
Legendruthless wrote:
I also don't think we have the data on other defensive plays yet. Because the flat zone was one of the best plays to stop the Hitch in 4.5, so many teams had strong familiarity with it and that is what caused the wave of teams to use it.

Once we start using other plays, whichever one comes out as the best people will spam and we will be back in the same situation.


I have a lot of defensive data that backs up what I'm saying. I'll post a summary later.


I get what the data will say. How many people have called a different play other than flat zone that much? My point is, if everyone spammed a different play as much, how effective will it be compared to flat zone? My limited personal experience has shown its similar.

But I don't know if there is enough data out there to prove it.


The difference is stark. But I put 0 trust in def play knowledge by offensive players. The only position where play knowledge seems to make a difference is off play knowledge for QBs.

Re: IMPORTANT: Play Removal Notice

By Bruno77
10/17/2022 3:30 pm
setherick wrote:
Bruno77 wrote:
setherick wrote:
Legendruthless wrote:
CrazySexyBeast wrote:
lots of "I've been abusing the **** out of both these plays blah blah dont do or delay or i'll lose!"
HAHAHAHAHAHA!
That's what you get for abusing the plays, yo.

Just rip the **** bandaid off and stop the bug.

Thx JDB, appreciate the action taken :)
Gonna go toss in some random plays to fill my d/o playbooks and then remove them post patch.
Super simple and less than 5 minutes of my time.
Easy fix to a nasty bug.
CSB


It still won't solve the underlying problem. All everyone is going to do is change flat zone for another zone play. Sure you'll be more successful for maybe a season. But back to where we were.

I am ok with removing FZ for now as most teams have built up the familiarity to dominate, this will sort of be a reset for a season until other plays are spammed.


This isn't true. Statistically the other zone plays are ineffective against most runs or passes. The FZ was effective because it put multiple players in the passing lanes of the passing plays that work. Most passing plays don't work against any man defense.

The biggest problem with the testing of the game engine is that it uses zone and man equally. So the automated test suite shows the passing game as balanced and realistic when really no one runs zone in competitive leagues.


Replace the word zone with just non-blitzing plays (so I am thinking for example of 3-4 Man Cover 1, 4-3 Man Under 1, 46 Heavy 2 Deep Man Under). Is this still the case?


Yes and no. These are vulnerable to certain passing plays.

The bigger overall issue comes with overuse penalties. These defensive calls don't get overuse. Offensive plays do.

So effective offensive plays become less effective over the course of the game. But man defenses that do not blitz don't. So I can stream the 3-4 Cover 1 against the 113, 203, and 212 and shut down the run and not risk getting burned often by the hitch. This is more true in 4.6 where the WR1 is the #1 target on the hitch so my opponent is going to have to run it a lot to hit the home run on the backside. And start getting hit with overuse penalties before that hits.


I think that last part of the quote is what I was trying to get at, which is these plays could become supercharged, maybe not to the same degree as Flat Zone, but without the overuse penalty then you can still use them in high doses throughout the game just like Flat Zone, which I think may have been what Legend originally intended.

I'm just hoping for overuse universally for that reason, though I guess what JDB said about offenses being supercharged later on when they did that originally is an interesting point.
Last edited at 10/17/2022 3:32 pm

Re: IMPORTANT: Play Removal Notice

By setherick - League Admin
10/17/2022 3:35 pm
The difference is the FZ is overcharged at play 0.